- It features the 17 numbers located between 22 and 25 on the single-zero wheel, with the inclusion of the two. Instead, a certain specific order of number is followed at most casinos about existing rules, generally poker deal icm chip chop beginning from a single zero.
- Aug 27, 2019 Poker author Steve Selbrede discusses the most popular final-table deal-making methods - ICM, chip-chip, and equal chop - while weighing pros and cons.
At the end of 2016 in the European Poker Tour Prague €10,300 High Roller,Patrick Serda and William Kassoufmade one of the most talked-about deals in recent poker history. Despite Serda going into heads-up play with a huge chip lead, the two struck a deal that saw Kassouf officially take first place and the trophy while Serda walked away with the lion's share of the prize pool.
In poker, the Independent Chip Model (ICM) is a mathematical model used to calculate a player's overall equity in a tournament. The model uses stack sizes alone to determine how often a player will finish in each position (1st, 2nd, etc.).
Many criticized the chop, but each player made the deal that he saw as being best for himself at the time, and that's the essence of what deals are all about. Each player has his or her own goals in poker, and Kassouf and Serda decided this deal best helped them advance toward those goals.
Serda showed up for PokerStars Championship Panama with his newly-boosted bankroll and wasn't afraid to put it in play, as we found him there playing events that included the $10,300 High Roller. We caught up with him on break during the $5,300 Main Event to ask him about the chop with Kassouf and deal-making in general, and he was happy to share his thoughts.
PokerNews: First off, what was the experience like playing with Will at the final table?
Patrick Serda: I think overall it was really good. I think the way he was personified during the WSOP put him in a really bad spot. I had a great time playing with him and I think he's great for the game overall. I know a lot of people don't have that impression, but I think [the way he acts] is within the realm of reasonable.
Can you give a little detail on how the lead-up to the deal went down? Refresh us on the situation and what had been developing at the table.
We looked at numbers three-handed. I think both myself and (Tue Ullerup Hansen) wanted more money, so it was just never going to get done. When we got to heads up, I had a pretty substantial chip lead. We ran [independent chip model] numbers, and I was supposed to get $709K against $542K. Obviously, I felt like I had a little bit of a skill edge, so I wanted to get a little bit more.
At first, they said the person with the most chips had to take first. But, obviously, that wasn't something I was overly interested in. I was more than willing to make some type of deal to get more money.
What was the chip situation at that time?
I think I had right around 16 million, and he had right around 4.5 million. I think we were going into a 250,000 big blind, so he had under 20 big blinds. But, there weren't too many chips in play. We ran some numbers afterward as well, and if we got a coin-flip situation, we were going to be flipping for about $63,000 in chip equity. But, I could only win about another $45K if I had won, so any type of coin-flip situation is not a good thing for me in that spot. So that was another factor in getting a deal done.
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As far as ICM goes, the thinking is that it usually favors shorter stacks, right?
It does. ICM and chip chop is the same when it's heads up. When it's three-handed, it then favors the short stack. Generally, [ICM] doesn't take into account the chip leader's position in being able to manipulate the table.
I think that was something, when we looked at the numbers three-handed, Tue wanted more. And that was a spot where he was super-close in chips. I was able to exploit the fact that I was able to play more pots with Tue and give a little bit more leeway when Will was raising.
Ed. note: Kassouf doubled through Hansen and then Serda eliminated him in third. At that point, Serda and Kassouf made their deal.
Poker Deal Icm Chip Chop Shop
Best way to beat slot machines. Does the ultimate deal, with you getting the money and Will getting the trophy, reflect each of your respective motivations in poker?
I don't think that's necessarily completely true. Obviously, titles and stuff are nice. I just have a lot of friends who have titles and aren't doing as well financially. To me, if you play well, those will come. I've talked to a lot of friends. I definitely feel like I've gotten some backlash, but I also think a lot of people have never played for that amount of money, so it's hard to put yourself in that spot. Hopefully, it comes up again in another spot, but I think in this situation, it was very reasonable for what we were both looking for so it worked out.
I ended up getting $10K over ICM, which I thought was a fairly good deal for me. I feel like it worked out for him, too, because he didn't have to play any more, and it works out well with what his goals are in poker at the moment. I also had a really big piece of myself, so it was a substantial amount of money. So, I was super happy to lock up the huge amount rather than play for an extra $40K.
Your previous high cash in a live event was around $40K and you had about $170K in total cashes. This was massively over that, so how does that change the calculus of the deal? If you had a previous big score in this vicinity, would you be less inclined to take a deal like this?
I think it depends on the percentage of the tournament that you have. A lot of players will play a $10K and have 25 percent of themselves. I had substantially more than that. I generally keep very large percentages of myself.
I come from a cash game background, playing cash games live. I had a pretty successful WCOOP — I ended up winning one for like $200K. Obviously, scores like that don't come around very often. It's important to try to lock up equity in spots like that. It's different than chopping where first is $50K and second is $38K or whatever. This is something that's pretty substantial and probably a little bit life-changing for me in terms of being able to travel and play the live circuit a little bit more and focus more on tournaments.
Ed. note: Serda noted he plays under the name 'prepstyle71' on PokerStars. That account won the $2,100 Six-Max Pot-Limit Omaha Championship during the 2016 World Championship of Online Poker for $202,930.
Do you have a lot of experience making deals online?
I've made a couple of deals online. My WCOOP [victory] didn't work out to any deals. We looked at numbers a couple of times, but it didn't really fall into place. I don't usually make deals, but if it's the right situation, I'll do it.
Now, let's get into the art of actually making a deal. What tips do you have for that?
I think it's important just to evaluate where you are financially. It's also important to make sure you have someone in your corner to make sure you aren't getting a bad deal. Obviously, you should always try and ask for more if you feel you have a skill edge. I think that's something that isn't factored in enough, or it's factored in too much where people feel they have too big of a skill edge. There are certain ways to mitigate those things, and I think that's not considered enough in smaller buy-in tournaments.
Poker Icm
So, it's critical to have an honest assessment of yourself relative to the other players.
Yeah, have an honest assessment of the situation. I think some people are keen to chop, and some people can be a little bit less keen. If you can pick up kind of where everyone is at.. for example, I never want to be the first one to say what I'm thinking. Unless it's obvious that I'm going to want more, I usually am not going to give my opinion before I hear some other opinions.
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Obviously, you were dealing from a position of strength since you had all of the chips. How does it change if you're in a lesser negotiating position?
I think I'd probably be more inclined to take closer to ICM. Or, I'd chop up some of the money and leave some of the money to play for. When we chopped the full amount and didn't leave anything [in the Kassouf deal], it was so favourable to me, it made sense not to play for the trophy. If we were closer, think we would have ended up chopping some of the money and leaving $30-40K and the trophy to play for.
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A lot is written about poker strategy. How to play the turn, when you should slow-play, playing on the bubble of a tournament — the list goes on. But shockingly little is written about chopping at final tables, an intense few minutes of negotiation that often leads to the gain — or loss — of huge sums of money.
Imagine you’re a casual player with a couple hundred dollars in your poker account. You decide to play a bigger tournament than you’re accustomed to, but it works out in a big way. After having the tournament of your life, you’re sitting at the final table. With outrageous pay jumps for every place and blinds feeling more ferocious by the minute, the table starts discussing a deal. You’re already playing for more money than you’ve ever played for before. What should you do?
Well, that depends on whom you ask.
Daniel Negreanu, Card Player’s 2004 Player of the Year, recommends that you avoid making deals for a variety of reasons. Alex “AJKHoosier1” Kamberis, on pace to become Card Player’s 2008 Online Player of the Year, says it’s OK to consider it if you think you don’t have an edge, but argues that you shouldn’t be complacent with what you’re scheduled to get.
A chop at the final table is when the remaining players decide to split up the prize pool in a way that is different than the tournament is scheduled to pay out. With huge differences in pay for different places, it is not rare to see the final few competitors of a tournament work out a deal.
Take a look at a recent $10 rebuy tournament on PokerStars. More than 2,000 people participated, with nine making the final table. First place paid $13,216, while ninth place only paid $902. Both players had outlasted more than 2,000 players, yet one received more than 14 times what the other player got.
Although you don’t see many chops on TV, final-table deal-making has always been a variable at poker tournaments, both live and online.
Negreanu decided a long time ago to accept a “no chop” policy, and he advises other players to consider it. In a 2001 article for Card Player, which he says he still believes entirely today, he wrote, “By not making a deal, I would never be getting the worst of a deal, and I wouldn’t be hustling or swindling anybody into a bad deal.”
Kamberis, who recently negotiated one of the biggest chops in online poker history at the 2008 World Championship of Online Poker (WCOOP) main event, couldn’t disagree more about the “hustling and swindling” attitude.
“Chopping is absolutely part of the game,” said Kamberis. “Just like when you’re at a table and you read the players, you read the players during a chop — seeing which players aren’t really going to fight over it and who’s complacent with the money they’ve already made.”
He says that final table moments are not the time to be generous. He suggests taking what sounds to be an almost Machiavellian approach.
“Don’t be afraid to be pretty ruthless. Go after what you can possibly get,” said Kamberis. “You try to get a feel for who you can take advantage of. It sounds bad .. but I think it’s just like when you’re sitting at a table, you’re just trying to get more money. That’s what you’re doing the whole time; why should the chop be any different?”
In the 2008 WCOOP main event, when it got down to five-handed play, players asked PokerStars to crunch the numbers to see what a by-the-chips chop would look like. PokerStars will accept any deal that all players agree on (as long as a certain amount of money is held aside for the ultimate winner in marquee events), but players usually ask them to show chop numbers according to chip counts.
The fairness of this method has been debated extensively through online poker forums. Many people argue that this method favors the big stack and hurts the small stack, and believe a better method to be the Independent Chip Model, or ICM, which calculates your equity as opposed to just your stack.
When the players at the WCOOP were given their chip count chop numbers by a PokerStars representative, Kamberis was originally slotted to get $672,542. By the time he finished talking, he guaranteed himself at least $782,542. An additional $110,000, thanks to a few minutes of negotiations. How did he do it?
“Immediately when I saw the (original) numbers, I said, ‘That’s not going to work for me,’” said Kamberis. “Honestly, I hadn’t even really looked at the numbers. I just knew that whatever came up, I was going to try to get more. It’s common sense.”
Kamberis said that players are way too content just taking whatever money is offered, or even giving up some of their own prize money. A quick Google search of “worst poker chops” will show a number of deals in which intimidated players, eager to take a guarantee of added cash, gave up all of their negotiating power at the table. Kamberis understands that by chopping, people will already win a large sum of money, but that doesn’t mean that they should forget how much money is still at stake during the discussion.
Negreanu admits that he doesn’t feel comfortable in persuading players to take what would be a bad deal for them, but that isn’t the only reason for his “no chop” policy.
Back when there weren’t thousands of players per tournament, final tables often contained a number of his friends. And as any pro will tell you, you shouldn’t really chop if you are confident that you are better than your opponents (with perhaps an exception being that the prize money is life-changing). Negreanu never wanted to get into a sticky situation where he’d chop with someone (because he respected their abilities), and not chop with another player (because he was confident he could beat him). He affectionately refers to it as “poker politics.”
So, what should you do when approached with a chop proposal? You’ll have to decide for yourself if chopping is for you, but if you’re worried about getting the short end of the stick, there are a few things to keep in mind.
- Make sure you ask for chop numbers. Sometimes, sneaky (and clever) players will try to persuade you to take a deal with their own proposed numbers. Even if you might be willing to give up some cash for the guarantee of a certain amount, you should start out by asking for a by-the-chips or an ICM chop to have a reasonable place to begin the negotiations. Virtually all poker sites will accommodate this.
- Maintain your poker face throughout negotiations. Even if you’re thrilled with the proposed deal, you don’t want to “show your hand” and thus give up any potential bargaining power that you had. Even if you’re terrified of continuing to play for that much money, an appearance of confidence is helpful so that people don’t run you over.
- Understand your position. If you have a 2-1 chip advantage over someone, you really shouldn’t be taking even money with that person unless you are utterly convinced you would lose to that person if play continued.
Most poker professionals, Kamberis included, generally do not like to chop, because most of the time they are the best players at the table and are confident that they will be able to take it down. But if you are playing for a life-changing amount of money, or if you don’t believe you have an edge, you might want to consider making a deal.
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